awesome award 300x300 Women Gamers: Gaslamp Games forums are amazing
 
I’m about to tell you a story about videogames, kitchens, and internet forums that has a happy ending. Stop laughing, I’m serious.
 

What happened here has never happened to me before in my life, or to any other woman I have ever heard of, so listen up. Listen well all of you. If you’re a Game Dev or you moderate an internet community, or you’re a bunch of women who know how this usually plays out–no matter who the hell you are I promise you that you’ve never seen this before.
 

As you well know, I recently beat the ever-loving bizzle out of Lord Dredmor the hardest way ever (pre-Wizardlands expansion), and these kinds of things (ie: beating a roguelike at all) don’t happen every day, so I visited a number of forums to see if I was really a badass or if maybe everyone already did this. Apparently, no, they had not. It was awesome to be called a badass so many times in one day. This was the greatest feeling ever, and a fine welcome after my long days of dying every time I play a roguelike. I wanted to know and interact with everyone else who loved Dredmor as much as I do. I wanted to be among my people and rejoice.
 

As you also might have noticed, this took a foul turn. What happened is documented in the link there but essentially my first day on the forums I was told to return to the kitchen, in what must have been what guys who don’t know any women think is a normal activity for us.
 

I was really glad when shortly after my post went up I saw a supportive comment on my blog from the forum moderator. Friends, this is highly unusual. For those who don’t know, in the best-case scenario, here’s how forum moderation normally plays out:
 

Human Female: Hey all, I’m here and I play this and I’m not putting effort into hiding my gender for some reason.
 

Human Forum members: Oh, Hi! How can you play that in the kitchen?
 

Human Moderator: Ok, that guy is banned, let’s never speak of this again alright?
 

THREAD DELETED
 

This sucks because now the problem is made invisible. The only good thing is we don’t have to look at those words anymore, but nothing about this feels like justice, inclusion, or problem-solving. Further, a lot of times garbage talk is not moderated, even on forums with moderators, because there’s this idiot idea that if we say stuff like “That’s just the internet” it will all go away and be okay again. But it’s weird because then you look at your forum and the only people there are guys who are wicked good at making kitchen jokes. I guess women just don’t play games?
 

The next thing that happened was a developer at Gaslamp Games named David Baumgart did exactly what has always been needed. He didn’t tweet anything, he didn’t write a singe-y blog post, he didn’t spew inflammatory angershouts, he didn’t silence me, he said this instead:
 

David Baumgart forums 300x86 Women Gamers: Gaslamp Games forums are amazing

 

You absolutely have to read this. (The clicking makes it bigger)

 
And you know, this response was perfect. I had no desire for Kitchen Joker to be banned. In general, I sincerely want us all to get along, but the price for peace should never be your invalidation as a human for no good reason. By now, we know that’s what it means when the jokes aren’t stopped. One person told me that instead of my awesome reply I should have said nothing to the Kitchen Joker and just asked the mods to ban him. No. Because if he’s a good guy and just didn’t know, maybe he will learn from this. Rather than kicking out all the guys who say stuff we don’t like why not see if they can unlearn the dumb things they think so we can all play together? Otherwise they’ll just collect somewhere else I want to post on the internet and continue annoying me there. We have to make a social change that says no. And sometimes we have to do it with “your mom” jokes.
 

So I was trotting along pretty happy at finally getting to be just a person at last on the Gaslamp Forums, thinking after the temp ban Kitchen Joker would just flutter off and find a better place to call home or (ideally) come back renewed with understanding that the internet isn’t just for making dumb jokes all day toward women. I logged in to see if the new hotfix for Dredmor was up and I saw this PM conversation:
 

Hybelkanin the mansplainer 300x275 Women Gamers: Gaslamp Games forums are amazing

 

Fig. 1 : Mansplaining

 
When I saw this my first reaction will not come off as good feminism. Remember folks, my whole life as a female I’ve been actively trained to make nice, keep people happy, and when they are unhappy FIX IT even if they’re just upsetting themselves because they were jerks and someone said NO MORE JERKS. My Wishful Brain’s programming still booted up and pulled this out: “Awww, how NICE! He wants us to be friends, he must be so sorry, I mean, he SAYS he’s sorry, right?” Goodness. Well I am an autonomous beast so I’ve spent a lot of time reprogramming myself so my Smart Brain turned on. It was like: “You: Wishful Brain, you’re being stupid again. PAY ATTENTION. He says all this stuff about being sorry, but I think he says a lot more about the situation being overblown because his intentions were harmless. He cares more about looking good than he does about how you feel. BULLSHIT ALERT.” Cue the claxons.
 
(PS: in my head claxons sound like Nyan Cat.)
 
I was agast.
 
Still agast.
 
Cold tears formed in my eyes and I thought to myself what I would reply. Would I say, “Hey, this is probably something you should spend time learning about. And I don’t plan on being your friend. Ideally, you should not have contacted me just because you decided your NEED to look good and feel like a Good Guy was more important than my comfort. Next time you’re careless with women try to consider that your needs aren’t better than theirs.” Indeed, I was planning an intelligent yet compassionate response. How proud you must be, Mom.
 
BUT WAIT! I didn’t have to write fuckall.
 
I logged in today (again to check for a delicious hotfix) and I didn’t have to tell this Kitchen Joker anything. Developer DAVID BAUMGART beat me to it:
 

David Baumgart response to Kitchen Joker 185x300 Women Gamers: Gaslamp Games forums are amazing

 

Ladies, please restrain yourselves from sending marriage proposals.

 
I want to say thank you to David Baumgart, to “Daynab” the forum mod, and to all the future men of the Gaslamp Games forum. I want to welcome all women who enjoy being badasses to play Dungeons of Dredmor, possibly the least sexist game in the world, made by the most inclusive developers known. (And in my opinion, a very fun Roguelike)
 
I also want to say to all of you who want a better games community, here it is. To those who wanted to see things done right, there you have it. I can’t say anymore. This is sincerely, tear-inducingly the best thing that has ever happened to me in the world of games. If you’re reading this and you have no idea why I feel like that, please avail yourself of the hundred years of thought that has been done on the subject of women, feminism, sexism, and see if you can’t learn. This isn’t some opinion, it’s a truth you can understand and it should count as an achievement.
 
 

pixel Women Gamers: Gaslamp Games forums are amazing

144 Responses to “Women Gamers: Gaslamp Games forums are amazing”

  1. Greggory P. Carpenter Says:

    Hooray for progress! Sorry for the lateness on behalf of the rest of us. ~G

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    No one is graded on punctuality anymore. It got too popular so it had to be stopped (;

    [Reply]

  2. PC Says:

    WIN. I will be buying this when I get home. I may lack the patience for a lot of roguelikes, but my support of this behavior must be shown.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I’m thinking of writing some playguides for Dredmor ever since I murdered it. You play it you let me know what you think?

    [Reply]

  3. Personman Says:

    Yay! This is the bestest thing. Thank you for the writeup! I will be linking people to this as a shining example of how things like this should go down.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Oh man, thanks for the link love! I’m glad you like it.

    [Reply]

  4. Punning Pundit Says:

    I’m trying to figure out how anyone can non-sequatiously tell _anyone_ to make a sandwich, and then be confused that they’re doing so in an act of attempted aggressive dominance. Protip: if you wouldn’t tell your _partner_ to make you a sandwich, you shouldn’t be surprised when a stranger takes offense to the same demand.

    Unless that stranger is an employee at a sandwich shop. And even then, politeness requires an ask- complete with “please” and “thank you”.

    Frustratingly, Kitchen Joker has probably never had to think of himself in the position of a woman- never considered the idea of having empathy for women as fellow humans.

    I’m not sure what’s wrong with society that such a thing is even possible.

    [Reply]

    Osbo Reply:

    Honestly, it’s reached regular internet language at this point, and therefore was an easy and quick jab to make without any awareness of possible offense or consequence. In other words, poster was ignorant and thought this was acceptable. This is precisely the problem with these games.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    He would have, if only he considered us people.

    [Reply]

    frymaster Reply:

    “I’m trying to figure out how anyone can non-sequatiously tell _anyone_ to make a sandwich, and then be confused that they’re doing so in an act of attempted aggressive dominance”

    I think it’s the sexist equivalent of “ironic” racism. The problem with that is of course ironic racism still normalises racism, and the same applies with “ironic” sexist statements

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Then in the same way guys shouldn’t be making “ironic” sexist statements.

    [Reply]

  5. OverlordTomala Says:

    That was awesome moderation. I’ve been a part of many forums (and even manage one of my own), and it’s nice to see a moderator do the right thing.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Did you see that the biggest role in ‘moderation’ was personally handled by one of the devs? I think that says a lot about how they view games/gaming.

    [Reply]

  6. Spirit997 Says:

    Absolutely amazing! Bravo to Gaslight! I really wish things like this would happen much more often. The fact that this happens to women at all is just ludicrous! Women are people too, and in my honest opinion, capable of so much more than men are(And I am a guy, and I’m saying this), and the fact that guys think they can just “walk” all over women, absolutely disgusting and disheartening.

    Especially, when women do amazing things in video games, and they just get thrown aside by quite a vicious gaming community. I am very, very relieved to see a moderator take a stand on this and set a very good tone. Congrats to you on your awesome achievement in beating Lord Dredmoor!

    Now I shall go and do the obligatory “Throw money at my screen for Gaslight Games but nothing’s happening!”

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I dunno, I think people are capable of a lot, regardless of gender. It’s problematic to suggest one gender can be capable of more than another, don’t you think?

    Thanks for the congrats, btw. Dredmor is an effing badass.

    [Reply]

  7. Mark Says:

    Perhaps it’s that I’m a vindictive misanthrope, but while I’m glad it was resolved to your satisfaction and this moderating team is on the side of the angels, I don’t see what makes it a preferable response to simply banning the little shit. As a matter of policy, I mean. It’s always gratifying to see someone educated about the concept of empathy, but isn’t it either impossible or at least prohibitively effort-intensive to do that every time it comes up in a large video game forum?

    Maybe it’s just that my perception has been colored, and I’m thinking of this person as “a moderator” rather than “a community member.”

    [Reply]

    Griffin Reply:

    Mark,
    The reason why straight banning isn’t a functional answer is because the action of disclusion triggers aggression and anger. How often can you remember a time in your life where you learned something progressive about your own flaws when angry?
    You don’t. You get kicked out… you get angry… and your mind justifies that anger by calling the people involved small minded names. Then they vent to their friends who will blindly side with them. Then they end up viewing it as them being right and the situation being screwed up.
    By giving him a temporary glitch and bringing him back into the community and publicly explaining it to him, you force him and his ego to be publicly accountable for the information being presented to him.
    Should he storm off, on his own… he has to admit being wrong in the process. Should he fight back he has to take a position against the viewers and the talker.
    Trust me… banning is not going to be the solution. Like she mentioned, he’d just end up on some other community she wants to be part of and do it again.

    [Reply]

    Mark Reply:

    Griffin,

    It’s definitely better to do it that way on the off-chance you’ve found someone receptive to education, but isn’t it, at best, highly impractical to go to all that effort every single time some idiot mouths off? There’s an unlimited supply of them, after all.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Griffin,
    I’m okay with guys being angry. It’s not our job to manage/control their anger it’s theirs, right? Feeling angry is something we as adults must learn to manage and it’s up to us to be responsible for our feelings. It’s harder for men due to the patriarchy that tells them feelings that aren’t anger are bad/weak but I think a lot of men learn to disregard this programming and replace it with healthy emotional habits and skills. It can be done, and saying “society told me so” doesn’t work after someone knows that there’s another way.

    What do you think would happen if we reward someone’s anger with more accommodation? They’d be like a missing stair in the house that we all must jump over. Why not just fix the stair?

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Mark, you bring up a really good point. I also want to add that clearly the size of the community matters a lot.

    There are people who would certainly prefer a ban, ban, ban policy but right now I lean toward thinking it’s preferable to institute a ban policy that could lead to a redemption if you can.

    The best argument I’ve seen for alwaysperma is that temp bans can leave some people (mostly women) uncomfortable and they just don’t return to the community. Fewer women in favor of more Kitchen Jokers is not a good investment in a community. To me, nearly any woman would have more value in a community than a Kitchen Joker.

    The best argument I’ve seen for tempwhereyoucan is that it leaves the problem visible while at the same time heavily discouraging misconduct. Erasing the problem only means that more men can deny it exists. How would anyone know about it if they don’t see it? I’d hardly blame someone for that, so if the goal is “better communities” long-term we all have to see that there’s a problem before we can fix it.

    You’ve given me something to think about, and maybe after I consider this a while I will have a change of heart. I can’t say for sure which argument is best. I’d like to talk more about it if you’re up for it.

    [Reply]

    Tony M Reply:

    (linked here from Rock Paper Shotgun). The reason I’m in favor of temp bans where possible is because alot of people posting on forums are teenagers. As a teenager I was guilty of careless racism/sexism, but it mostly came from self-obsession (and resulting lack of awareness of others feelings) rather than genuine malice. All it took to change my ways is for someone to point out “you are a being a bully, look at what you are saying”. If one or more teenagers read those moderator posts and realized they were guilty of bullying, it doesn’t just improve their forum posts, but could improve their behavior in unmoderated settings (like in-game chat).

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Tom, that’s what I was imagining too, that some people really just jerk their knees without thinking but that after thinking about it they’re no longer a threat.

    I think a good method might be using temp bans and if a returning member continues to be a problem give them 3 strikes or some other amount that makes sense and then permabanning. Obviously some people are heavily threatening and scary right off the bat so some of those should be perma-ed right away.

    What do you think about it if temp bans mean fewer women are involved in a community though?

    Further, I don’t think our kitchen joker did anything out of malice, but that’s not really the point. It causes harm and it really doesn’t need to, right? If his intentions really are “good” he should learn how to interact with people in a way that reflects goodness without having to always explain how it’s so good.

    Tony M Reply:

    I agree, while the kitchen joker may not have been acting out of malice, that doesn’t forgive his actions or make the forum any less threatening to women. I just meant, that its possible that this guy can be educated, hence the temp ban. There are more aggressive posts where a poster has clearly dug his heels in and isn’t going to learn anything. In that case just permaban them. I also agree that repeat offenders should get permabanned.

    It opens alot of hard questions though. Is it really a forum moderators job to reform obnoxious posters? My liberal values say that we should try to educate first and punish second, but does that even work in this setting? I don’t know the answer, but thats why I think this is a worthwhile discussion. Hopefully just the discussion itself educates and results in better behavior in the gaming community.

    Great article thanks for sharing.

  8. Meg Says:

    I actually am tearing up right now, god. It gets so tiring feeling like it is us against the world. Imagine, the world could be on our side.

    I’d never looked at the game before, but I’m buying it today and telling them why.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    YOU. YOU are why I wrote this article. In what, 30 words you summed up what this felt like better than I did in 120003908548095 words.

    “I’d never looked at the game before, but I’m buying it today and telling them why.”

    I like that a lot. Yes, tell them why. If more people in the world who are making games and managing communities saw how to do it right AND WHY IT IS RIGHT I think more would do it right.

    [Reply]

  9. Annelise Says:

    Holy shit. I have *never* seen this happen in a heavily male populated webspace in my life. These usually aren’t the types of games I play on PC, but after this I’m going to give it a try.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    INORITE!

    Let me know what you think of Dredmor if you pick it up. If you can’t grab it though, no harm in lurking the community, right? (:

    [Reply]

  10. Tarante11a Says:

    I don’t have anything pithy to add. But I’m a little teary myself, wanted to say a hearty HOO-BLOODY-RAH! and to offer group-hugs to Gaslamp Games.

    And thanks for sharing this!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Thank you! I had some notion that this was special because when it happened it was a first for me (and I’ve been at this a long time) and I was like “How can I make people know that this happened?”

    I don’t know if the Gaslamp people know this but I had happy smiley doofy tears when they defended women.

    Bad stuff happens literally EVERY DAY when I play games with other people, but this is a special thing and I want to see it so often that one day people will click this link by accident, read it and go “Ugh, why would someone write this? Every community bans Kitchen Jokers. This is both needless AND too pink.”

    [Reply]

  11. Megan Says:

    I can definitely say that once I find a job and am making some moolah I will be purchasing this game so I can continue to support amazing developers like this. Plus the preview on Steam makes me think of the original Diablo so I will have to try it out! These guys totally rock!!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Lurk the forums! (:

    [Reply]

  12. Griffin Says:

    That is ridiculously amazing! I have the most wonderful feeling of warmth and hope in my heart right now. :-)

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    That’s how I felt too!!

    [Reply]

  13. Cassandra Says:

    “Restrain from sending marriage proposals” indeed. I had to restrain myself pretty hard … and I’m already married!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    You would do well to learn from my mistakes. At times of great emotion I have poor impulse control and I pretty much wrote this whole article to convince the Gaslamps Devs to polyandry-marry me. I knew that studying anthropology would come in handy one day.

    Lol, but yeah, in all seriousness this will probably win them a lot more female fans than other games have. And they didn’t have to make their whole game pink and as far as I know there aren’t any unicorns in it.

    [Reply]

  14. Cassandra Says:

    Also, that moderator gets bonus points for the Star Wars quote.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Bonused!

    [Reply]

    ConFigures Reply:

    That was my favorite part, geek that I am! Obviously the whole thing was great, of course.

    [Reply]

  15. Ben Says:

    Congratulations! Through the powers of the interwebs you morons are now the butt of jokes on a grand scale

    Someone made a get back to the kitchen joke and you scribble out this vapid diatribe? Do you even know what a joke is? Freedom of speech ends where my feelings begin is the message you’re portraying.

    Its vacuous attitudes like those shown here that have enabled modern/western governments around the world to cart people away in the middle of the night for ‘violating’ speech laws.

    Don’t trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn’t die.

    [Reply]

    DK Reply:

    But we should prioritize your feelings to harass and degrade women, right? Also, you’re confusing a privately owned internet forum with a public park. Your freedom of speech does not extend to the former.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    DK, I would say Kitchen Joker DOES have freedom of speech, he can say whatever he likes on an internet forum, but that does not mean that anyone has to like what he says. It also doesn’t mean he can say whatever he wants without getting banned, because like you said, what he says fucks the freedoms of other people who want to be there.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Ben, it sounds like your argument is “I don’t want to have to care how other people feel when I want to say jerk things, and I also don’t want them to complain when they have those feelings.” It’s a pretty unrealistic strategy for human interaction. Have you considered that it might be a good time to look into new options for interacting with other gamers? If you don’t want to then you may not have a lot of good places to hang out online anymore. I do believe there will be still be crappy places left for you. They prolly won’t contribute to much to any good gaming discussions but I bet they’ll be really good at making kitchen jokes.

    If you decide to become a part of the community it would be great to have you.

    [Reply]

    Lil Reply:

    SO MUCH dignity. Rats like ben make me want to drop poison. Thanks for treating him like a human being where he seems to think most of us don’t deserve the same.

    [Reply]

    GuruJ Reply:

    @Ben,

    Don’t EVER confuse freedom of speech with freedom from consequences. Even if *legally* you can say anything you like (rarely 100% true) there will *always* be social consequences.

    Geez, look … go and read or watch Jane Austen’s “Pride and Prejudice”. This is set in a time where roles of men and women were *very* unequal , property typically was inherited by men and not women, etc etc.

    But if you told a woman 200 years ago to “get back in the kitchen” in a social event (which is really what the Internet forums of today are), You. Would. Have. Been. Shunned. Never invited back to polite society again.

    So if it was bad form to say these kinds of things back then, why the F should it be accepted by any civil online community today?

    [Reply]

  16. Sarah Says:

    Whoooo!! Super excited!! Honestly, I feel a real internet revolution coming on for women, what with Feminist Frequency, Fat, Ugly or Slutty and Not In the Kitchen Anymore bringing SO much attention to the negativity online. I for one am definitely sick and tired of the sexist, homophobic and racist jokes that I see smeared everywhere on the games I play.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I feel like you’re right. It’s been nice to see more inclusion and I am starting to feel like a regular gamer now. I can just relax and play games, finally! What I’ve always wanted!

    [Reply]

  17. The Sunday Papers | Rock, Paper, Shotgun Says:

    [...] are sexist pigs. What about a positive story instead? Tiffany Martin’s cake-pie.com ran a piece this week celebrating Gaslamp Games, they behind Dungeons Of Dredmor. Having beaten the game, [...]

  18. LordDon Says:

    I was directed here by Sunday Papers at Rock, Paper, Shotgun and I must say, this is fantastic. I knew the Gaslamp Games folks were pretty cool based on my previous interactions with them but this puts them a step above.

    I hold out hope my daughters won’t have to deal with nearly the amount of shit in the gaming community women today do. You did a fine job schooling the troll yourself, Tiffany. I’ll keep trying to do my part calling out misogyny when I see it as well.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Hopefully by the time your daughters are grown they will not even believe you when you tell them how bad it used to be. “Daddy, it wasn’t that bad, no one really told women to get back in the kitchen that’s too ridiculous to believe.” It’ll be like the Mad Men of the internet.

    Also, thank you for the compliment on my return of shit to a troll. It’s not my first day on the internet, but it’s funny how a lot of men think women don’t know how it works and they get so surprised when we show it.

    If you want to do your part against misogyny I think the most effective way to call out misogyny without having to dedicate a lot of effort is to just go “Really?” or use a well-timed “Whoa” whenever you encounter it. No diatribe necessary, and they realize they’ve done something off without you having to hurt anyone. It’s pretty good one for men to use, but I think if a woman tries that she’ll just get ignored some more. The other suggestion would be to include women in game stuff, make them welcome and treat them like they’re just as valid as everyone else, but I bet you already do that based on what I hear you saying.

    [Reply]

  19. Sleepy Says:

    That was just brilliant from start to finish! I normally come away from the internet almost unbearably embarrassed for my half of the species, but David Baumgart not only dealt with the whole situation impeccably, he’s also articulate enough to actually get across exactly why it’s so idiotic.

    Mansplaining indeed, I wish more of us were so good at it.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Your half isn’t universally embarrassing, but Kitchen Jokers can really make it seem like that. Yet another reason to penalize them! If sexist jokes lose their “normalcy” the rest of you will look a lot better to the rest of the world and respect for gaming in general will be improved.

    [Reply]

  20. Rikard Says:

    More good news is that this is now linked to from major gaming sites. (I got here from Rock, Paper, Shotgun.) Hopefully, it’ll help educate people and make them think twice before posting. Actually, scratch that “them” and replace it with “us”. It’s not some abstract “them” that need to think. I should include myself in that. If the Kitchen Joker was honest, seeing himself as a good guy, and because of that not thinking about his actions, was his biggest mistake.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I hope that this story will serve as a good lesson so that communities everywhere will be better. We would all benefit from that.

    I agree that he has some cognitive dissonance about his “good guy” status. I mean, a good guy would have said he was sorry and left it.

    [Reply]

  21. Jeremy Says:

    This is my wife’s favorite game, so I am thrilled to hear it is supported by such an awesome community/developers.

    Sorry you had to go through some crumby comments to find that out, but every bastion of modern thought and community that we find in gaming is one step closer to the real gaming community we all deserve.

    Also, you are a badass, I could never beat the game, much less like you did. All the same it is the funnest game to die in that I’ve ever played :-)

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Thanks for calling me a badass ^_^

    It’s good that your wife got you to try it out! It’s pretty hard game so don’t let it deter you, keep at it!

    This time I was told to get in the kitchen by just one person and it hurt, but I see crap like that everywhere I go so what gets me truly excited is that people are talking about it. Maybe it will be that one day treating women as outsiders will be a thing of the past and we can all game in peace.

    [Reply]

  22. BubuIIC Says:

    That last response from the developer is truly great. This needs to become some kind of manifest for every public forum out there. It’s a very personal and accurate explanation of the underlying problem of these “jokes”. Well done.

    Also see here for a completely unoffensive sandwich joke ;-)
    http://xkcd.com/149/
    (reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudo)

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I too want people to see how to do this right. We focus so much on what’s bad, what we don’t like. Some of us get that already but may need to see what the next step is!

    [Reply]

  23. Seamus Says:

    I really don’t have much to add to this thread, so I shall suffice with ‘AWESOME’ :)

    [Reply]

  24. Dareloren Says:

    Just bought Dungeons of Dredmor for no reason but the desire to support Gaslamp for this awesomeness.

    [Reply]

  25. Alex Says:

    This is pretty much the best thing I have ever seen. I must join!

    [Reply]

  26. Arsenic Says:

    Brb, buying Dungeons of Dredmor.

    …But seriously, this shit is amazing and awesome. Thanks for informing us of this awesome company.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    It made me so happy that they were this awesome. Happy to oblige (:

    [Reply]

  27. Lia Says:

    I’ve never even heard of this game, but I love MMORPG’s and I’m willing to give it a try. :)

    I too will be purchasing the game because of them making female gamers welcome, and I hope they keep checking your blog to see how many of us are doing it. :)

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Roguelikes are a weird genre, and for some people it can be hard to get into but DoD is a very good one that’s great for those new to the genre.

    Check back if you still haven’t gotten to it, I’ll have a beginner’s guide up soon.

    [Reply]

  28. Cambiata Says:

    Dungeons of Dredmor purchased. I don’t know if I’ll enjoy it as a game, but damn, developers like that need to be encouraged!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I hope you like it, it’s a great game and an excellent introduction to roguelikes. If you still haven’t tried it come back in a while, I’ll have a beginner guide posted.

    [Reply]

  29. Julian Kogler Says:

    Dear Tiffany

    thanks for sharing this story with us. I will feature it in my dissertation. It is a game design and a treatment of psychological and other topics like gender in videogames.

    Have a nice time playing.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Huh.

    Your dissertation topic sounds fascinating and if you’d be willing to share it I’d be happy to read it when you have it completed. I’ve sent you an email in case you haven’t subscribed to comment replies.

    Thanks for reading!

    [Reply]

  30. James Says:

    Nice one! That game is insane, even trying to find an easy class / build I gave up after a few hours mostly because it was too hard.

    Is the phrase “mansplaining” not sexist btw? I mean every time I read it basically makes me think it’s not acceptable for me (as a man) to explain anything ever to anyone under any circumstances.

    [Reply]

    James Reply:

    and yes I’m aware the idea is not ALL men explaining is ‘mansplaining’ but if it’s /really/ about people in a position of implied authority abusing that authority then why use a sex specific term?

    [Reply]

    ConFigures Reply:

    Because the term refers to a sex-specific form of privsplaining/condesplaining, not all forms of “explanations” (often oblivious/incorrect/unwarranted lectures, etc.) from those higher in the (presumed) hierarchy to those lower-down assumed-to-be-ignorant people. Mansplaining, wealthsplaining, whitesplaining, etc.: each reeks with its own special odor (history and context). Consider the silliness of suggesting that someone pointing out a -ist act should omit all language referring to the -ist component of said act or be labelled -ist themselves. Well, silliness or chilling effect, depending.

    See Kat Goodwin’s excellent explanation at http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/16/you-never-know-just-how-you-look-through-other-peoples-eyes/#comment-352795 … and further down in comments (such as http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/16/you-never-know-just-how-you-look-through-other-peoples-eyes/#comment-353494) for other gems, including the awesome bit from Josh Jasper, “It’s mansplaining turtles all the way down, folks.”

    See also http://www.alternet.org/story/82222/men_explain_things_to_me?page=0%2C1 (which may have prompted the term mansplaining), including “It’s the presumption that makes it hard, at times, for any woman in any field; that keeps women from speaking up and from being heard when they dare; that crushes young women into silence by indicating, the way harassment on the street does, that this is not their world. It trains us in self-doubt and self-limitation just as it exercises men’s unsupported overconfidence.”

    [Reply]

    Dani Reply:

    Because it’s nearly always men explaining how they know better than some woman, even when the woman is talking about her lived experiences. Men are privileged over women in our society. I suggest looking up some Feminism 101 on the Googles if you actually want more information.

    And yes, you *should* think about why you’re explaining something to someone, especially a female someone, before doing it. Self-awareness is a virtue.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    It’s good to ask questions, and wanting to understand “Mansplaining” is a good thing.

    I’m by no means an authority, but after 31 years as a woman, a lot of sociology/anthropology classes, hundreds of hours of research, and countless articles I would sum up the term to mean the following:

    1. In a patriarchy (defined as males having more social value, power, economic control, wealth, and/or status than females) a male talking to a woman like a child or ignorant listener. You can read a hilarious example of that here: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/13/opinion/op-solnit13

    2. In a patriarchy, a man explaining to a woman or correcting her about what feminism REALLY is.

    3. In a patriarchy, a man rationalizing his disrespectful or sexist actions. (Example: My intended use of the word)

    In most cases, this rationalizing/explaining is unsolicited.

    I wouldn’t worry that anytime a man explains that he will be guilty of mansplaining. You simply have to consider the different in status that males have compared to females in a patriarchy and not exploit it. Simple! So simple you should feel a great deal reassured, I hope.

    [Reply]

  31. Esther MacCallum-Stewart Says:

    This is just downright awesome. Thanks for such a fantastic post, and also to Gaslamp for being so incredible in their reponse. It’s a shame that this response has to be called ‘incredible’ of course, because what David Baumgart writes shouldn’t need to be stated, and players should never be put in the position you were in the first place. However, the fact that more people are standing up against this kind of attitude really fills me with hope for the gaming Industry.

    Also, I’m a long term player of Dungeons of Dredmor and would love to see that guide!

    May your eyebrows always be copious.
    Ex

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Yeah, David Baumgart was a bit embarrassed, and it seemed like the reason was that to him it’s the obvious correct action, and not worthy of heroism.

    I agree it would be nice if it were the norm to include women and punish bullies.

    I’m still working on guides, my first one will be a beginner’s guide to Dredmor. The goal will be to help people get accustomed to roguelikes and optimize their crawling to minimize frustration and maximize understanding and fun. We may be able to get a few more people to play! Then maybe it would be a good idea to do a “Guide to Ascension: Advanced Dredmor Tactics”

    Thanks for your great reply!

    [Reply]

  32. tuba_man Says:

    I’m not really into rougelikes but I’ve purchased a copy in support. This is awesome.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    That’s a nice gesture! You might consider trying Dredmor anyway, it’s a pretty good rogue. It’s not just a good introduction to the genre but also a fantastic crawl that doesn’t have a lot of the properties that are most likely to repel people from rogues. Let me know if you like it!

    [Reply]

  33. cat Says:

    Hmmm, you dont want no klischee jokes about women, so why exactly is your site completely in pink? oO

    [Reply]

    GemmaM Reply:

    You’re trolling, right?

    [probably unnecessary explanation] We should be allowed to do things that incidentally draw attention to our femaleness without having that be asking for harassment. Because being female, even (gasp) openly and obviously female, even (gasp gasp) feminine, isn’t asking for harassment. Duh. [/probably unnecessary explanation]

    [Reply]

    Topy Reply:

    Because pink is er… feminine ? And blue is for boys right ? Isn’t that downright sexist ?

    [Reply]

    GemmaM Reply:

    Hahahaha now you’re really trolling!

    Yes, in our society, pink is coded feminine. No, it’s not sexist to acknowledge this.

    What would be sexist is if I said that women and girls should have to do the things that are coded feminine and/or avoid anything that is coded masculine. What I’m saying here is merely that things that are coded feminine should not be considered asking for harassment, purely because they are coded feminine. More generally, looking down on, or reacting negatively to, those things that are coded feminine, just because society associates them with women, is actually a form of sexism in itself.

    I can do this alllll day, honey. All day.

    Dani Reply:

    Because liking pink and not wanting to be marginalized and harassed are two totally different things?

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Tru Fax.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Simple, I love pink. If your follow-up question is something like “If you don’t want people to mock you for being a woman why are you so obviously a woman” I can answer by saying I don’t think being a woman is shameful, so there’s no need to hide it.

    [Reply]

  34. iheartbaumgart Says:

    I’d just like to add, apropos of nothing, that David Baumgart also does the art for the very excellent, but non-Gaslamp game Starfarer (http://fractalsoftworks.com/). And that he is VERY HANDSOME (I refer you, somewhat creepily, to the Gaslamp blog). And apparently he’s a total class act, too! Sheesh.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    But people, I said RESTRAIN yourselves! (:

    Yes indeed, thanks for posting that info ^_^

    [Reply]

  35. This Linkspam Will Burn (21 August 2012) | Geek Feminism Blog Says:

    [...] Gaslamp Games forums are amazing: “I’m about to tell you a story about videogames, kitchens, and internet forums that has a happy ending. Stop laughing, I’m serious.” [...]

  36. Be Better Stewards | Comunità online gaming community Says:

    [...] sure to read about the entire sequence of events and their resolution here. Thank you David and Gaslamp Games for being better [...]

  37. Pai Says:

    This story made my day! Warm fuzzies all around!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Good to hear it brightened things up for you ^_^

    [Reply]

  38. robothobbit Says:

    I’m not sure if I can refrain from a marriage proposal. Only feeling I can compare it too is seeing the USS Enterprise for the first time in the Star Trek trailer. Is this what you humans call love?

    Anyway, that is so awesome and just the kind of good news that I needed today.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Oh yeah, <3 Trek! (TNG forever!)

    Like you, I love good news. I'm so glad that it brightened your day and cheered you up!

    [Reply]

  39. Dorothea Says:

    Also just bought the game+expansions in order to support the awesome.

    Perhaps if it becomes eminently clear that Awesome Makes Money, we will see more awesome.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I think they saw a pretty big spike in sales that month thanks to a lot of people doing the goodwill purchase. (:

    Maybe give the game a shot too, it’s pretty good and an excellent introduction to roguelikes.

    [Reply]

  40. ToubaboKoomi Says:

    I’m not even that big a fan of DoD, but I’m going to buy the expansions just because of this.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Nice move, your support might be able to show other companies that their communities and conduct really matter to us.

    [Reply]

  41. PDixon Says:

    I got pointed here by a link on Metafilter.

    Wow. That’s awesome, and hopefully the bellwether of a seachange. (Yes, that metaphor has gone thru the blender several times.)

    Also, super props on your accomplishment. As someone who puts prob 30% of his video gaming time into roguelikes (stone soup atm), that’s a Big Deal. (I got Dredmore, but could not get into it, because the amount of backtracking I had to do and slowness of animations drove me nuts. So also props on your patience, I guess.)

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I like that metaphor!

    Thanks for the props, too. BTW if you really hate the slowness did you know you can speed the animations? Every time you press “+” it en-fastens the game.

    If you’re really into rogues come back, among other things (FTL, ToME, Hack Slash Loot, Binding of Isaac) I have plans to write about my Powder ascensions too. I play so many rogues and we really need to get some love for them out in here!

    [Reply]

  42. Benly Says:

    Wow, I’m glad the Gaslamp guys were so cool. And holy crap, congratulations! I’ve beaten GRPD but never with a random build, and definitely not saddled with a dead skill!

    (Now go for a Digula random-build kill! You can do it! :) )

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I want to murder Digula, but I’ve been backlogged with so much I haven’t been able to put it on the frontburner.

    Thank you for your kindness and grats on GR/PD. I’ve been playing rogues for a long time and if you’re into the genre come back and check in I plan to write about Powder, FTL, ToME and more in addition to writing some guides on Dredmor.

    I appreciate your encouragement ^_^

    [Reply]

  43. Maxens M. Finch Says:

    Wow! This really made me want to start playing that game!
    It’s just so great to see moderators/DEVS reacting like that, in a non-condescending, helpful way.
    I’ll look forward to more of your articles, too, I discovered a lot of other rogue-likes games here; I only ever played Nethack (took lots of my time) and some MUDs before. (well, I don’t have that much time these days, sadly)

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I hope you did end up playing Dredmor! It’s one of the funniest, cleverest games I’ve played.

    I’m putting together ideas for what to focus on when I write more roguelike content. I plan to put together a beginner’s guide to Dredmor as well as some introductions to some of my most favorite roguelikes. I’m happy to take requests and I’d be so delighted if you returned and got involved with this as a fellow fan.

    [Reply]

  44. Ms Gimbal Says:

    Add me to the list of people who just bought DoD after reading this post. I’m always keen to try interesting, funny games, love roguelikes, and love supporting good and inclusive developers.

    Congratulations on being a badass, btw.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Smart move to vote with your money, I think every person who does this improves the chances that other devs will promote good community values and consider teh womenz.

    As a fan of rogues you should come by, I have some future plans to write about some of my favorite ones, and a few Dredmor guides are in the works. I’d love to hear suggestions from other members of the RL community like you.

    Thank you for calling me a badass! ^_^

    [Reply]

  45. katja Says:

    Oh man, I love Dredmor! Although it kept crashing, so I can’t remember if I finished it or just gave it a rest. But I guess I’d remember an epic boss slaying, so probably gave it a rest. Might try again after this – this is very exciting and heartwarming! They’re setting a very good example for other communities out there.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Haha, yeah you get an achievement if your game crashes at least, lol. It’s a fun ride though, if you can get through it remember: there are harder difficulty settings to consider, lol.

    Give it a shot! If you have a hard time with it know that I’m putting together some guides and I don’t half-ass anything so I think they’ll be pretty helpful.

    My heart was certainly warmed by this, and like you I was hoping it would lead other devs to follow suit ^_^

    [Reply]

  46. » Blog Archive » New Reddit Dredmor Challenge (8/24-8/31) Says:

    [...] events to follow that would lead to me finding a lot of great people in the game community (and having a whole new appreciation for the developer). Among the communities I found were the folks over at /r/Dredmor on Reddit. They started up a [...]

  47. MM Says:

    I’ve been idly looking for a new game for a while.

    I’ve just found it.
    Entirely and 100% because of the developers’ response on their forums.
    <3

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I think their sales hit a significant spike after this happened. I should probably ask them how much of a spike…

    [Reply]

  48. fwtbc Says:

    Hi Tiffany,

    I’m blind, so I’m not able to read the text contained in the screenshots you’ve taken and included in the post above. I see you’ve written about how to talk to people with disabilities, so I figured you’d be approachable. Could you please add the actual text of these exchanges to the post, be it via the ALT attribute for the img tag, or my simply quoting the text in the post itself?

    From what I can tell, it sounds like David @ Gaslamp has done really well and it’s great to see more men standing up against this kind of harassment. If you haven’t already seen it, you may be interested in the “men speaking out against sexual harassment” series by Surly Amy at the skepchick blog.

    Thanks for your time, and congratulations on defeating the game!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I’ll work on that, thank you! I appreciate your help in making my site more accessible, it’s very important to me to be inclusive. It may take a few days to do this for all the current images, and I’ll make sure to do this going forward as well.

    I hope you’ll find this site a place you can happily return to.

    [Reply]

    fwtbc Reply:

    Thank you. It’s greatly appreciated.

    Your reply is the kind of reply I wish for, but rarely get. If you don’t mind, I shall refer people to it as an example of Doing It Right[tm], and is the reason I will be back to read more. I’ve added you to my rss reader.

    Oh, and thanks for using a human-verification system that’s not excessively difficult. There’s a certain cruel irony in trying to post a comment on someone’s blog/website about accessibility issues, and then being thwarted at the last step by a captcha that’s inaccessible, either through the lack of an audio option, or just because even the audio option is freaking impossible to comprehend, too.

    [Reply]

    Darren Grey Reply:

    Since the text isn’t up yet I thought I’d passte over the first two bits (I think the second two images were from private messages, which obviously only Tiffany can share):

    First line from Sandwich guy:

    @Thecakepie: Oh my.. female with cake AND pie in her nickname? Welcome! Get in the kitchen!

    dbaumgart’s response:

    Ok, that’s done. Temp ban given and that’s considerable restraint. I won’t stand for this bloody stupid sandwich “joke” that marginalizes female players involvement in this community (and, like, life in general). It’s precisely the opposite of the kind of environment we here at Gaslamp want to create.

    I’ll leave it as a warning for now but shall nuke the string of comments from orbit if it comes up again; So, let’s move along!

    Welcome, Thecakepie! Also other people! Everything’s perfectly all right now. We’re fine. We’re all fine here now, thank you. How are you?

    And how does everyone feel about Diggles? Those crazy little guys.

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    All of the most recent articles should be tagged with descriptions, and I’ve been slowly working through the backlog.

    Please let me know if there are any other ways to help, and know that I’m open to suggestions on how to make my descriptions more useful and my site more accessible! Thanks again for bringing this to my attention!

  49. Linkspam Emerges Victorious (24 August 2012) | Geek Feminism Blog Says:

    [...] Women Gamers: Gaslamp Games forums are amazing: “I also want to say to all of you who want a better games community, here it is. To those who wanted to see things done right, there you have it. I can’t say anymore. This is sincerely, tear-inducingly the best thing that has ever happened to me in the world of games.” [...]

  50. [Giveaway] Dungeons of Dredmor – a game by a studio that ‘gets it’ | Says:

    [...] being inclusive to women is to them as game creators.  So it’s absolutely no surprise to see this wonderful post about how they combated sexism and misogyny on their official forums [...]

  51. Merric Says:

    Why is it only the ladies who need to restrain themselves from sending marriage proposals? ;-) I’m totally ready to join the game just to thank/propose to the Designer myself.

    Thanks for posting this. We’ve been having a pretty active discussion over at the Kingdom of Loathing Forums in response to the “Tropes vs. Women in Video Games” Kickstarter. This blog got linked and it’s so refreshing to see a Designer not just simply responding to discrimination by banning, but actively working to educate and fight sexism. Bravo!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    You’re completely right, I should have said “People”, not “Ladies”.

    I used to play the meat out of KoL back in the day. I knew some prominent players and had a lot of fun with it even after ascending.

    I read the posts in the forum, and it’s a pretty impressive conversation, thankfully most of it was about sexism in games and not just limited to my story (: Thanks for posting a link to my site in that discussion. Heavy content.

    Like you I think it’s a loss when mods respond with just bans/erasure, I think it’s better to give the offender a chance to learn while making the behavior known to the community as unacceptable. A response like the one I saw was very unexpected and beyond the call. Thanks for your comment!

    [Reply]

  52. Joel Says:

    I do mostly tabletop gaming, and my gaming would be tremendously less rich and interesting were women not involved and kicking ass alongside the guys. Rock on, Cake-Pie, as well as Gaslamp for the good response.

    Also, are there seriously guys here telling a woman how she ought to have responded to some bully hassling her? Wow. Stay classy, guys. Way to miss the point.

    [Reply]

  53. Just Some Guy Says:

    I haven’t read through the replies in great detail, but I gave them a skim read looking for mention of what happened next. Did the guy run away in a hissy fit? Or did he actually realise the error of his ways and give a genuine apology?

    [Reply]

  54. Weekly Roundup: Yes, there are dick-free places on the internet « Cyber Femmes Says:

    [...] that has any sort of ending that doesn’t end in tragedy for a woman participating. However, cakepie relates an astounding story sans tragedy. After participating on the Dungeons of Dreadmoor forums [...]

  55. Greg Says:

    I feel like roguelikes in general are the least sexist games. In NetHack, you can even be transgender :)

    I’ve been playing Brogue a lot lately: https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/

    [Reply]

  56. Cakepie, i sandwich e la questione del genere nei videogames… | SoloGames.it – Guida su videogiochi e console Says:

    [...] non è e bisognerebbe riflettere tutti su certe parole, frasi e pensieri.Vi lascio a riflettere con lo stupendo post (in inglese, purtroppo) di quanto accaduto a Cakepie, bravissima giocatrice trentenne e con un [...]

  57. Shattered-Earth Says:

    Bought the game, don’t know what it’s about other than what’s in this blog but I bought it anyway. It looks fun, but most importantly I need to support devs who are willing to stand up for what’s right.

    [Reply]

  58. Indignant Desert Birds » Sunday Morning Reading Material First Sunday in September 2012- Talking to an Empty Chair Edition Says:

    [...] long as this is exceptional behavior, it deserves praise. I find it enraging that the gaming world is so anti-woman that the internet equivalent of wiping [...]

  59. On the nonsense of kitchen and sandwich jokes Says:

    [...] support women’s rights on the Internet (or you know, simply exist on the Internet as a woman), and you’ll inevitably encounter some form of the following allegedly hilarious [...]

  60. Link(s) to the Past: The Week in Links 9/3/12 | nerdyladies.com Says:

    [...] Tiffany Martin, of cake-pie.com, had a crappy experience with a gaming forum–and then a really awesome experience. (Hint: The events started with the phrase “Get in the kitchen!”, and ended with an excellent response from a developer.) Women Gamers: Gaslamp Games forums are amazing // Cake-pie  [...]

  61. Gaslamp Games | standing alone in complexity Says:

    [...] about this community interaction on the Gaslamp Games forums made me want to really play Dungeons of Dredmor again. ^_^ This entry was posted in journal and [...]

  62. Zerosion Says:

    I just wanted to make a quick reply. I will start off by saying I absolutely LOVE your name. The Cake Pie XD

    Onto a more serious topic. I have a great deal of respect for both you and the Developer David Baumgart.

    I have never tolerated such discrimination, and I never will. I was raised better than that. This whole situation reminds me of one at my workplace recently, although on a different end of the spectrum I believe such things relate to each other.

    This last Sunday I went into work and looked at the fridge, seeing how its my responsibility to take care of it. Upon looking in there I found out that someone had been drawing swastikas and writing Hitler in the fridge. I am not religious, but the utter disrespect for the Jewish people and the events that transpired in WW2 infuriates me. Believe me when I say that everyone heard about this. I dont know who did it but its really frustrating to see that kind of thing. Discrimination of anyone or anything is a sad sight. :/ Sorry you had to go through that. On behalf of all guys, my apologies.

    [Reply]

  63. Zerosion Says:

    Also before this id never heard of Dungeons of Dredmor. I have to go check it out now ^^ thanks.

    [Reply]

  64. Masha Says:

    After reading this: http://reddit.com/tb/zsq1o and sending it to my SO, he directed me to this story.

    Thank you for posting this – many of my IRL friends are self-described progressives who don’t know why it’s sexist to think feminine women are not smart, to say that a woman in our office is a bitch for getting her sexually-harassing boss fired, or to excuse those who propagate stereotypes on the internet.

    Aaaaaand with that I’m off to become fully absorbed in my freshly downloaded Dungeons of Dredmor!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    I read that how to be a girl on the internet post (I’m a redditor too) and I wish I could have upvoted more than once. It was so good to read about someone else who gets it, and it makes me feel less alone.

    I get a lot of drive-by sexism for having a pink website, for having blonde hair, and wearing makeup so I understand your frustration with people for not realizing their prejudices.

    I hope you stick with Dredmor, I don’t know if you’re into roguelikes or not but I’d love to know what you think of the game. Thanks for commenting, Masha!

    [Reply]

  65. TFG Says:

    This is incredible!
    So very much <3<3<3<3<3<3<3!!!

    [Reply]

  66. Casual Connect Highlights | Simpson's Paradox Says:

    [...] 9/16: Calling out a sexist “joke” is exactly what this forum mod at the awesome Gaslamp Games …. Well done. Bonus points for the follow-up where the posters uses the “just kidding” [...]

  67. Psiweapon Says:

    Hey there CakePie!

    Seen you back at the temple, already knew about your xbox hueg DoD feat (I don’t even play GR! I’m still stuck in DM!)

    What I didn’t know was that your success was so promptly met by such a jerk on Gaslamp Forums. Gah.

    I bet that guy’s dick feels smaller since you beat the game the way you did. That dbaumgart pounced on him like the fist of an angry god probably doesn’t help, either.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Thanks for coming by, if you came from the temple then you must be a big roguelike fan. I encourage you to come by once in a while, I’m planning to write some Dredmor guides as well as some content about other rogues I play and love (powder, tome, crawl, FTL, and more). As a fan I’d be excited about suggestions, if you have any, about what you’d like to read about rogues.

    What’s really funny is that my success was never challenged on the gaslamp forums. Read closely, the guy posted his comment at me in the INTRO thread. He hadn’t even seen that I beat dredmor on GR/PD random.

    I did get a few comments here on cake-pie.com that I left unapproved because they were just dicks feeling smaller at my accomplishment. Some were outright abusive, some were threats. Some tried to tear me down and I wasn’t having any of that.

    It was fun to read your comment and I’m sure I’ll be seeing you around the net.

    [Reply]

  68. Michelle Says:

    I do feel an overwhelming urge to send a marriage proposal! Perfectly explained, perfectly pitched. So unfortunately rare.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Isn’t it too bad that it’s so rare? I’ll be glad when treating women as having equal status is so common no one will think it’s heroic anymore.

    [Reply]

  69. GatfromKI Says:

    I love your awesome reply. Really.

    See, when I’ve nothing better to do, I troll on the internet – or more preciselly, I counter-troll (on french forums, because my english language is quite limited). And your awesome reply is an awesome counter-troll. I love it!

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Thank you for what you said. The whole thing was a shocking experience (in a wonderful way) and I’m so glad other people got to know about what happened.

    I know what you mean about counter-trolling (: It can help but it’s always good to know when to use it and when to try to dialogue ^_^ Some trolls are just one rational tête-à-tête from being on the right side (:

    I appreciate your comment and your point of view!

    [Reply]

    GatFromKI Reply:

    The question is: why should the bullied person try to initiate a dialogue? OK, the troll is maybe just one tête-à-tête from being on the the right side. But doing that isn’t your role.

    Your awesome reply contains the main information: “WELP I was on this website for ONE DAY and [...]“. You don’t need to say anything more to make the troll understand why he’s not funny.

    And I don’t know if the answer from David Baumgard is that awesome (I’m a man, so…); but what I know is:
    - it’s his role, as an outside person, to do the “tête-à-tête dialogue” part.
    - your counter-troll strengthens his explanation.

    It’s purely psychological (and sexist, probably), but his answer could have been perceived as a “white knight” intervention. But no: because of your answer, his intervention reads as “OK, she doesn’t need my help at all, she’s perfectly able to defend herself. But I’m the law here, therefore I have to punish and explain”.

    TL; DR: don’t listen to people who say you “should have said nothing to the Kitchen Joker and just asked the mods to ban him”. Your answer is perfect in the context.

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    GatFromKI,

    I agree with you, the bullied person definitely doesn’t have to! It should be up to them of course.

    I have with gentler/accidental cases of bullying been able to get a puzzle piece or two into their hands but you’re 100% correct no one bullied should feel they must do so. Maybe I’m dumb for doing that at all.

    My feeling on Baumgart was that his status as a developer on those specific forums was so high, it wasn’t like a “White Knight” at all, it was more like a King coming down to address the bully. Because of that the experience to me felt more like justice than having my agency taken away by a guy speaking for me, protecting me and such.

    Thank you for telling me your feelings, you are very sharp and I love to see comments this good pop up instead of the whiny “I’m gonna rape you to death you bitch” crap I get. I guess those guys think it intimidates me. (It’s kinda sad)

    Good on you for being on top of the counter-trolling!

  70. Lecari Says:

    Hey,

    I know this is quite an old post, but I stumbled across it today and just wanted to reply to say that this is a great story – I wish this would happen more often. I’ve never heard of Dungeons of Dredmor until now but your experience means I will certainly now give it a try.

    Thank you for sharing your experience!

    -Lecari

    [Reply]

    Tiffany Martin Reply:

    Lecari,

    Yep, it’s an old post but somehow it seems to be relevant even today, a year later, don’t you think? Thank you for stopping by and reading, I still love when I see a comment like this one.

    You say you might give Dungeons of Dredmor a try? I definitely recommend playing it, and if I can offer some advice (esp if it’s your first roguelike) take it slow, and expect to die a lot! It’s fun! Hehe, if you do play it, you should come back and let me know what you think of it~

    [Reply]

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Posted by Cake-Pie
Dated: 13th August 2012
Filled Under: Games